124. Making Meetings Meaningful, Pt. 1: How to Structure and Organize More Effective Gatherings

[00:00:00] Matt Abrahams: For many of us, meetings can be frustrating, challenging, and even a waste of time. Join us for our two-episode series to help us make meetings more meaningful. Let's get started with episode one. 

[00:00:18] Imagine this, somebody comes up to you and thanks you for running an effective meeting. It's possible. Believe it. We can have meetings that matter.

[00:00:30] I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 

[00:00:42] Today, I am excited to speak with Karin Reed and Joe Allen. I've known Karin and Joe for many years and look forward to having yet another one of our lively and educational conversations.

[00:00:53] Karin is an Emmy award winning journalist and CEO of Speaker Dynamics. Joe is a professor of industrial and organizational psychology at the University of Utah. His research focuses on workplace meetings, organizational community engagement, and occupational safety and health. Together, Joe and Karin have written three helpful books on meetings, suddenly virtual, Making Remote Meetings Work; Suddenly Hybrid, Managing the Modern Meeting; and Running Effective Meetings for Dummies. Welcome, Karin and Joe. 

[00:01:25] Karin Reed: Thank you so much for having us, Matt. Long time listener, first time guest. 

[00:01:29] Joe Allen: Good to be here. 

[00:01:30] Matt Abrahams: Thanks. Let's go ahead and get started. Joe, I'd like to start with you. You're a meeting scientist, so I'd like to have you set the stage for us. Why do people hate meetings so much? And can you share some of the evidence that shows meetings aren't as effective as they could be? 

[00:01:48] Joe Allen: About 51 percent of meetings are rated as poor. So, people say meetings are poor, not just okay, not average, not above average, poor. That means half the time we go to a meeting and we're just unhappy about it, right? Why is that? 

[00:02:01] One reason is they're not very well run. We don't do them very well. We tend to get into a rut of habits around our meetings. And those habits aren't optimized for efficiency or effectiveness. They're just kind of what we kind of fell into with our team or with our group or with whoever we're meeting with, and we just keep going that way. And it's become normative in our society to complain about meetings. And so, it becomes this perpetuating cycle of I don't like meetings, you don't like meetings, let's go grab a beer and talk about how horrible and awful our meetings are, and we continue to do that. And so, I think it's both the way they are, but also self perpetuating, because we just believe that they're bad and there's nothing we can do about it. 

[00:02:42] Matt Abrahams: Right. We do what we do because we've always done it. And part of that is having ineffective meetings and then complaining about them. So, Karin, what are some of the constraints and barriers that lead to ineffective meetings?

[00:02:56] Karin Reed: There's a lack of intentionality. There's no stated purpose, there's no goal. Oftentimes you go into the meeting and there isn't proactive facilitation to actually get stuff done. And that really puts you back on your heels because you just think, wow, that was a waste of time for sure. You also have a meeting bloat where you have too many people in the meeting who are there just because, well, we want to make sure they're in the loop. The more people you have in the room, the more unwieldy that meaning becomes, so that is also a big challenge. 

[00:03:25] The third thing I would point to is just participation equity can be really, really hard to manage, because oftentimes it's the loudest voices that are heard rather than everyone's voice. And if you're trying to get something done in that meeting, you know, make a decision based upon everyone's opinion, if you don't hear everyone's opinion, then you're not going to be optimizing the ultimate decision. 

[00:03:47] Matt Abrahams: Yeah, several things there that perpetuate ineffective meetings. I know that when I go in and do the consulting work, I'll do sometimes, the very first thing I do is a meeting audit and see how many people are coming to meetings. The number of people who attend meetings is a definite sign of some of the dysfunction in communication in general because people are coming to the meetings because there are no other channels to get the information they need. So, meetings are often used as a band aid for that. 

[00:04:12] Many things you mentioned are really important, I want to come back to this notion of equity because that's really critical, especially when we talk about hybrid meetings. 

[00:04:19] Karin Reed: Let's dive into this whole concept of participation equity, which is really essential to having a successful meeting. I want to give you some specific strategies that you can try.

[00:04:29] The first one is validating all forms of participation. So, there can be the one where you traditionally raise your hand and speak up, but also chat is something that you really want to leverage in a virtual or hybrid meeting, uh, because it is a lower barrier to entry. If you put a question out there and you give people, the opportunity to respond in chat or out loud. You can have people respond in chat in a safer space where they can give a little bit more forethought to what they're saying. And then you can say, oh, that was a really interesting point, Joe, can you expand upon that? And at that point, maybe they're willing to come off mute and talk more about what they had initially introduced. So, I find that validating both chat as well as spoken participation is really, really important. 

[00:05:15] I would also lean into ensuring that everybody has an opportunity to weigh in by making folks aware of who is in the room. So, having an opportunity for Q&A could begin with the remote speaking first, as opposed to turning to the person who is sharing the air with you to your left and say, hey, Karin, why don't you tell me your opinion? Instead, you turn to the screen and say, I would love to hear what you have to say on this, Barbara, because I know you have a lot of experience. And then suddenly, they have the floor, everybody is aware of who all is in the room. 

[00:05:49] Matt Abrahams: This notion of equity is critical in meetings and elsewhere, but this notion of giving everybody the opportunity to speak, it's obviously more challenging when people are virtual and hybrid, but I really appreciate that.

[00:06:01] And what I heard implicit in what you said is you're actively listening and you're demonstrating that listening and seeking out that information. And that's the role of a good facilitator. Quite frankly, I think facilitation is one of the most challenging of the communication skills because you're managing time, you're managing participation, you're managing an agenda, and you're managing your own contributions. So, thank you for that specific advice. 

[00:06:23] Joe, I'd love to get a little deeper into the notion of meeting structures and what works, especially around agendas. I know you have an opinion on agendas and I'd love for you to share advice on if your meeting does have an agenda, where do you put the easier topics versus the more difficult or challenging topics and the ones that are sort of in the middle there. How do you structure a meeting and how do you use an agenda to help?

[00:06:45] Joe Allen: What can my team handle, and when can they handle it, and how can they handle it, that sort of thing. And there's actually some good research in group communication, and in groups and teams in general, about in what order should you ask a group to do an easy or a moderately difficult or a difficult task, right?

[00:07:01] And this is both when it comes to communication, but also into other tasks that a group might do collaboratively. And the research would suggest that if you have three tasks, one being easy, one being moderately difficult, and one being hard, you would start with the moderately difficult one if the team is primed and ready to go. And so, that's really the issue. And when I say primed, I mean, if you've done the pre-meeting communication, helping set the stage for a very comfortable, psychologically safe environment, they know the purpose of the meeting, the overarching purpose of the meeting, so that way their brains are primed for communication. If you've done the right scaffolding aspects of meetings, then they're primed and ready to go, you should jump in with a moderately difficult item, then go to the hard one, but you've got them ready to go.

[00:07:42] If your team is not primed or this is a new group that you're meeting with for the first time, you need to decide whether or not you feel like they can do that. And I actually would recommend for a new group or for a group that you're not as primed to get going, I'd actually do a ramping approach where you'd start with the easier thing, say, let's start with this easier thing, let's kind of get to know each other in this easier issue or problem or thing that we want to talk about. And then move them forward onto that. So, that way the priming also is accomplishing something as well, because you're, again, you're with a group that's not geared up and ready to go. Maybe you don't know them as well, that sort of thing. 

[00:08:15] Matt Abrahams: This makes so much sense to me that we should be strategic in how we think about the ordering. And if you've got a group that feels comfortable and safe with each other, they know the task and the purpose at hand, then you can dive into a moderately challenging issue first to get things moving. And then consider perhaps doing the most difficult next, but you're really using it to manage time. So, you're being strategic in how you do that.

[00:08:37] And then similarly, if your group is not one that has been primed, is not used to working with each other, then that easier task might be a way to get started and to facilitate that getting used to each other. So, thank you for that advice. 

[00:08:50] So Joe, you and Karin were among the first people to write about and publicly discuss best practices for virtual and hybrid meetings. What are one or two of the things we should all keep in mind when we aren't all meeting in the same physical space? 

[00:09:06] Joe Allen: Two things seem to be kind of bubbling to the top as being the most essential things to make sure that these meetings can be done effectively, and that's being seen and heard. And so, that's like when we first started doing this, we're talking about you have a camera on because you're going to be seen. And then we have to talk about you need to be heard, if your audio is not working, there is no meeting, it doesn't work at all. 

[00:09:25] And as we started to think about that, that's when we started talking about equity and making sure that everybody felt like they could engage both through the technology as well as interpersonally, right? And it's a feeling as well as the actual behavior of engaging and participating. And so, when all those things started to be considered, we started to see this commonality across these, even as we think about the more complex nature of a hybrid meeting. 

[00:09:49] Karin Reed: And actually, playing upon that, Joe, I mean, it's that whole idea of proximity bias... 

[00:09:53] Joe Allen: Yeah. 

[00:09:53] Karin Reed: That you really have to push up against all the time. Because those who are in the room, sharing the same air think about the meeting just being them. Those who are on the screen virtually, they think about the meeting just being them. And that's a problem because when it comes to equity, you know, you've got two meetings happening in the same meeting and you got to join them. 

[00:10:13] Joe Allen: Yep. 

[00:10:13] Karin Reed: So, it puts the burden on the leader to recognize that and make sure that they manage that participation. But it also is a matter of skilling up your people who are attendees to understand who all is there and who all is adding value. And even doing things like creating in room allies where, okay, Bob, you be the in room ally for Joe because Joe is attending virtually today. And then that means that Bob is going to make an effort to bring Joe into the conversation whenever he knows that he has a unique perspective to share.

[00:10:48] Matt Abrahams: I like that idea of an in room ally as a way of really thinking about equity in terms of speaking time and contribution. I like to advise people that if you have a hybrid meeting, consider starting with the people who are fewer in number. So, if there are five of us in the room and three of us on Zoom, I might start with an agenda item that invites the people remote first, so we remember that they're there. Similarly, if I had more people remote and fewer in the room, start there. So, this notion of making sure everybody has airtime and is remembered and seen, very, very important. Because we can have negative consequences if we don't encourage people to contribute. 

[00:11:27] So Karin, you spend a lot of time helping people, myself included, with their on-air presence, their video presence. What tips and tricks do you provide people so they can shine when literally under the spotlight? 

[00:11:40] Karin Reed: One of the things that I find to be the most vexing is eye contact, but it is so critical in terms of creating that connection with your audience. Unfortunately, we are dealing with imprecise eye contact where in order to look like we're making eye contact with our conversation partner, we are looking at the camera and not at the face of the person who we're conversing with. That is so challenging to get past because we want to make eye contact, but when we look at the screen and not at the camera it looks like you are doing the exact opposite, that you're looking down, you're looking somewhere else entirely. 

[00:12:17] So, what I tell people to do in order to have your conversation partner feel like you are being attentive to them and connecting with them, you need to look primarily at the camera lens. And I say primarily, because if you stare at the camera lens and never break gaze, it'll freak people out.

[00:12:36] Matt Abrahams: It's like staring at them in person, like having a staring contest. 

[00:12:39] Karin Reed: Yeah. Exactly. But in person, like, we get the social cue that, oh, look, they're appearing to be uncomfortable. I should look away. The camera doesn't give you that cue. So, you really have to think about not necessarily pouring your eye contact through the camera lens, but rather pouring your energy through the camera lens. Because the camera is the conduit to your conversation partner or the portal to your people. So, that's where you want to grow your energy and play with it the way you would with a person face to face. We look away all the time when we're talking to people face to face, do that when you're on camera as well. So, that is one of the major things from a performance standpoint. 

[00:13:16] And then just to also remember, this is a conversation. This is a pretty intimate conversation that you're having when you're on camera. It's not like you're standing up in front of the room or up on stage and presenting. You are as close to your conversation partner as your eyes to your camera and their screen to their eyes. So, stay in that conversation space and interact with it the way you would if you were actually in the same physical room.

[00:13:43] Matt Abrahams: I think those are wonderful bits of advice that it's a conversation. I like the portal to your people; I think that's a great way to think of it. It's a portal, it's a connection device. 

[00:13:53] I actually, based on some conversations you and I had, I have taken to taking a picture of my family who on most days I like and love. I tape it right behind my camera, so I'm actually not talking to the camera, I'm actually talking to a picture of people that I care about. And that helps me look at the camera rather than darting my eyes around or looking at the screen.

[00:14:15] I know also, Karin, you talk a bit about making sure you're well lit so people can see you, make sure you fill the screen. Some people sit so far away they look like a distant constellation in the sky. Any other tips and tricks for how we frame ourselves? 

[00:14:29] Karin Reed: I talk about the three-finger test, for example. So, it's hard to talk about if you're not seeing it but keep this in mind. Take three fingers, like connect your thumb and your pinky and stack it on top of your head. And that's how much space you should have between the top of your head and the top of the frame. That way you are taking up the majority of this space and you're also giving them a canvas to read your non verbal’s that is similar to the one that they'd be reading face to face. So, that is a big part of it. 

[00:14:57] Also make sure your camera is at eye level. Where you can draw a parallel line from your eyeballs to your camera, and that is parallel with the floor. And then make sure that you are sitting squarely in the space. If you're sitting slightly off kilter, it just feels uncomfortable, uh, for people to take in your communication.

[00:15:15] And then you mentioned the importance of lighting that is critical, people want to be able to read your facial expressions as easily as possible. We convey so much through our facial expressions. If you're sitting in shadow, it'll be more difficult for people to read the intent of your message. And then just make sure that you have really good audio because people are less tolerant of poor audio than they are of poor video. So, if there's a place to invest, invest in your audio. 

[00:15:40] Matt Abrahams: So many rich tips there, Karin. I love the three-finger test. You know, if anybody has ever been a Boy Scout or a Girl Scout, you take those three fingers, put it on top of your head. What it really means is it's showing that you're filling the screen with your body. You know, so many of us look like we're in the witness protection program sitting in the dark. I love your idea of having good light and making sure that we're seen and that we gesture and behave normally. So, thank you for those tips.

[00:16:05] In a similar vein, Joe, I'd like to get some very specific tips from you based on the work that you do. Let's start with what advice do you have for managing someone who is disruptive or just generally not engaged or helpful in a meeting? How can we manage that situation? 

[00:16:22] Joe Allen: There's actually a whole host of counterproductive meeting behaviors that I've studied over recent years, including things that happen in the meeting, you know, monologuing, interrupting, going off topic, those sorts of things. And it happens a lot in a lot of our meetings. Every meeting has one or more of these kinds of behaviors that emerges just naturally through the conversation. And that's not because people are trying to derail the meeting or to be difficult for the most part. Some are, but for the most part, most people are not, that's just what happens. And so, then you're in a meeting and you may not want to call them out or to make them feel bad. But sometimes you have to, you know, interrupt and you have to, you know, make an adjustment so that way you can get back on track. 

[00:17:03] So, the general advice, some of the earliest work that I did actually with Nale Lehmann-Willenbrock, a professor out of Hamburg University, looked at what we call procedural communication. And so, it's a very practical tip for all of those circumstances where, okay, a person's monologuing, or a person has gone really far off topic, or they've interrupted someone. Procedural communication is really engaging in a proactive communication strategy by saying, hey, that's a great thought, but I really want more input on this. Or you just interrupted Karin. Karin, can you finish your thought, and then, and then it'll be your turn to share your thought. Or just doing those things, and if you do them politely, as long as you're polite about it, generally speaking, people are not offended by it. Especially if that politeness is really geared towards not shutting them down completely but giving them the opportunity to share their thoughts in the appropriate way.

[00:17:52] So, the monologuer who goes off on their favorite topic, you say, thank you for bringing that up. That's a good thing to talk about, today we're talking about this. Do you have any thoughts specifically about this? And so, it's not about them not having airtime for their thoughts. It's having airtime on the right thing.

[00:18:08] And so, the tip is really just being willing to be proactive and correcting and redirecting and calling people by name and that sort of thing to keep the meaning aimed towards goals. Aimed towards the agenda or to the purpose for which you were there and helping people understand that. And if you do that regularly over a series of several meetings with the same group or in your meetings in general, you'll both be teaching people how to do that and how to communicate effectively in their meeting and your meetings will naturally get better with that same group. And when I do that, I actually have a reputation for running an effective meeting that allows people to communicate because I do that. And so, when I go into new meetings, people know because they've heard that Joe runs a meeting this way. 

[00:18:55] Matt Abrahams: I'd like this notion of really relying on procedural communication. And you took care of the second question I was going to ask, which is the person who just goes on tangents, etc. So, what I'm hearing you say is that you bring people back to the purpose of the meeting. You acknowledge what they've said and then you bring it back. And that's often in line with what I coach people to do, which is to paraphrase. Say, I heard you, I heard that you're talking about this, but now let's link or connect back to either the purpose or to something somebody else has said. And it is through that act of relying on the procedural communication that you keep things focused. And that sets a role model and example for everybody in the room.

[00:19:33] Joe Allen: And one thing I would add to that, is if you have an effective psychologically safe environment, it shouldn't all be upon the leader or the meeting organizer to do those sorts of things. It is completely appropriate and good if your team is collaborative enough. And feel safe enough to be able to do that with each other, right?

[00:19:50] So, you may be running the meeting, you may have looked away to see where things are on the agenda and someone else engages in procedures communication to bring things back to the agenda. That's wonderful and if you can get to that point, then you're really doing well. And hopefully you've got the environment that allows that to happen for you.

[00:20:05] Matt Abrahams: Excellent. Yes, it is everybody's responsibility to make effective meetings effective. I have a question for both of you. Karin, we'll start with you. What is the one biggest tip you would provide to people to make meetings more effective? 

[00:20:20] Karin Reed: Right size your meeting. That means having the right people in the room with a realistic agenda that will actually allow you to accomplish the goal. I think a lot of times people will try to fit 10 pounds of content into a five pound bag, and they think by perhaps speeding up the pace at which they're talking will allow them to do that, but it doesn't, and then you end up just with a lesser experience overall. 

[00:20:42] Matt Abrahams: Excellent, so it's all about focus. It's having the right people, focusing on the right message and the right task. Thank you. 

[00:20:49] Joe, same question to you. What is the one biggest tip you would like to share that can help meetings be more effective? 

[00:20:56] Joe Allen: Running effective meetings is common sense that's not commonly practiced. And the biggest tip I can give is to not be afraid of taking a little more time to make your meetings effective because it will take a little more time. But the reason I say don't be afraid of it is because one good meeting keeps you from having a repeat of that same meeting. And we know that one bad meeting causes three more meetings, right? So, we know that if you take a little more time and practice those commonsense practices that we all know we should be doing with our meetings, you'll have fewer of them. 

[00:21:32] If a concern for you is that you have too many meetings, this is the way to solve that. You'll have fewer meetings with your team or need fewer meetings with your team, therefore, you'll have to adjust your calendar with them. But by doing good meetings, if you do good meetings, you can have fewer meetings. If you don't do anything, the natural flow of communication, natural rise of people within organizations, you're going to end up with a busier calendar. 

[00:21:56] Matt Abrahams: So, investment upfront in time can save you a lot of time on the back end. Thank you. 

[00:22:01] Joe Allen: Absolutely. 

[00:22:02] Matt Abrahams: Uh, before we end, I'd like to ask both of you questions that I ask everybody. The first question will be honed and tuned just for both of you. And then we'll ask two that I ask everybody. 

[00:22:12] So Karin, I'm going to ask you this one. When you and Joe meet, and I know you met a lot because you've written three books together, what is the one thing you always did to make sure that your meetings would be effective?

[00:22:24] Karin Reed: Okay. That's so funny. I feel like I'm being exposed as a fraud because honestly, meeting with Joe was like meeting with just such a good friend. And so, we'd always begin by just catching up with what was going on in each other's lives before we got to any of the official work stuff. But I think, you know, perhaps that is a good lesson to be learned for everyone that, you know, inject humanity into your meetings and you'll have a more pleasant experience and probably get more done as well.

[00:22:50] Matt Abrahams: Excellent. And both of you are so easy to talk to. I can see how that would be fun and useful to get you started. Joe, I'm curious, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 

[00:23:02] Joe Allen: Steven Rogelberg, who wrote The Surprising Science of Meetings, considered the father of the modern meeting science. The one thing that he does is that he tends to do what he says that he does. That's what's really fascinating about his mentoring of me and what he does, um, is that he's very clear in his communication and does a really great job. 

[00:23:22] Matt Abrahams: Excellent, thank you. Final question, Karin, for you. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 

[00:23:31] Karin Reed: I'm going to point to the ABCs of communication. So, the first is authenticity. I believe that the best communicators are steeped in authenticity because that will help you resonate best with your audience. The B would be brevity. Be brief, be brilliant, be gone, no one will be sad if you go short, everyone will be annoyed if you go long. And then the C is clarity. Simplify your message because people will not buy into what you're saying unless they can understand it. 

[00:24:01] Matt Abrahams: I love the ABCs. I love the simplicity and directness of it, and I've loved the simplicity and directness of the advice and guidance that you've given us today. Karin and Joe, thank you so much for your time. Your insights into how to make meetings more effective, be they in person, virtual or hybrid, are excellent. And I encourage everybody to take time to make meetings matter and make them more effective. Thank you both. 

[00:24:27] Karin Reed: Thanks, Matt. 

[00:24:28] Joe Allen: Thanks for having us. 

[00:24:29] Matt Abrahams: Thank you. 

[00:24:30] Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast from Stanford GSB. To learn more about making meetings meaningful, be sure to listen in to our second episode of our two-part series. You can also learn more about effective meetings by listening to episode number 42 with Sarah Singer and episode 14 with Bob Sutton. 

[00:24:54] This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. Please find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us, also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. And check out FasterSmarter. io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.