155. Can We Be Candid? How to Communicate Clearly and Directly

[00:00:00] Matt Abrahams: Being direct and candid can help us in the most challenging of communication situations. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 

[00:00:17] Today, I'm excited to speak with Susan Rice. Dr. Rice is a visiting fellow at the Freeman Spogli Institute at Stanford and a distinguished visiting fellow at the Stanford Institute for Human Centered Artificial Intelligence.

[00:00:30] She previously served as Domestic Policy Advisor for President Biden and was President Obama's National Security Advisor and the US Permanent Representative to the United Nations. She is the author of the New York Times best-selling memoir, Tough Love: My Story of the Things Worth Fighting For.

[00:00:48] Welcome, I am so excited to have you join me today and I look forward to the conversation we're going to have. 

[00:00:54] Dr. Susan Rice: Me too. Thanks for having me Matt. 

[00:00:56] Matt Abrahams: So let's get started. You have led a variety of teams and organizations throughout your career. Are there any specific leadership principles you follow or use?

[00:01:06] Dr. Susan Rice: I think good leadership, first of all, is about setting a vision and a direction and hopefully an ambitious target. It's about demonstrating a passion and commitment to achieving that target and hopefully to energizing the folks around you. But to me, ultimately, leadership is about people. It's about bringing others along with you towards that objective or goal. And to do that, people have to feel not only wedded to the mission, but valued in their role in contributing to the mission. So I try very hard to find the best people. 

[00:01:40] And then giving those great people the space and the capacity and the power to do what they do best. And give them the expectation that when they need direction or they need top level cover or they need somebody to blast through the barriers or, you know, consummate whatever it is, that they know when and how to seek that direction from me as a leader.

[00:02:06] But I've also discovered that for people to feel valued and willing to give their utmost, they've got to know that their leaders, their teammates, care about them as human beings. And so, to me, that means that they need to know that their personal lives come first. When the people we need and love need us most, that it's okay to be there. And that the team will fill in behind you and support you, whether you're the most senior person on the team or the most junior person on the team.

[00:02:38] When I was National Security Advisor, my mom was very ill and she actually passed in the last month of the Obama administration. And, you know, President Obama very much led the same way. He was a dad, he was a real human being. And he gave me the license to do what I had to do to be able to support my mom, even as I was doing my job twenty-four seven as National Security Advisor. And that's the same way that I tried to lead my teams and give everybody on the team that same grace. 

[00:03:10] Matt Abrahams: I appreciate you sharing that personal story, thank you. I think it demonstrates the type of leadership that you believe in. It sounds like it's about finding the right people, setting standards and mission vision. And really supporting them both in their professional work, but also in their personal lives.

[00:03:26] I'm curious, I can imagine giving feedback, both positive and constructive, is part of that. How do you approach feedback? 

[00:03:34] Dr. Susan Rice: Giving it, or getting it, or both? 

[00:03:36] Matt Abrahams: I'll take both, but I'm curious about the giving part. 

[00:03:39] Dr. Susan Rice: I'm very direct, and I think, you know, the folks I work with expect that what they hear from me is, you know, what they see is what they get. I don't believe in playing games and going around people and being passive aggressive and all of that stuff. I shoot straight, and if somebody is, you know, doing particularly well, I want to reinforce that and encourage it, especially if there's been real progress. If somebody is screwing up, you know, I'll sit them down and explain, you know, what they are doing wrong, what the expectations are, and what I think they need to do to do better.

[00:04:11] And, you know, I will try to the best of my ability to do that. Especially in the first instances, in a patient and, you know, kind, if not always gentle way. But I'm not averse to being more forceful if my sense is that there's not an interest or an effort at remediation. 

[00:04:30] Matt Abrahams: I hear in your answer to your leadership approach and to your giving feedback that being very clear, helping prioritize, and being supportive when appropriate are part of that.

[00:04:38] Dr. Susan Rice: Being candid. And you asked, you know, about receiving feedback by the same token. If you give it, you got to be able to take it. And so I've really benefited at various stages of my career from colleagues who've been, as I would say, kind enough to give me the hard truths or the tough love or whatever you want to call it. To enable me to be better and help me to recognize where I'm falling short.

[00:05:01] Matt Abrahams: I think that's really important that people not only take the feedback, but seek it out and that's how we get better. You know, my favorite song from the musical Hamilton is In the Room Where It Happens. And you definitely have been in many of those rooms. What insights can you provide into how best to negotiate in high stake situations?

[00:05:21] Dr. Susan Rice: Drawing in particular on my time in national security at the United Nations, where for example, I was negotiating regularly with the Chinese and the Russians and other complicated interlocutors on Security Council resolutions, or the like. Or as National Security Advisor negotiating arrangements with foreign governments. I think very important to understand in the first instance what one's own bottom lines are. 

[00:05:48] What do I need to walk away with, must have, in order for this to be successful or acceptable outcome from the people I am negotiating on behalf of. Um, but equally important to try to understand the interests and the motivations and, to the extent possible, the bottom lines of the people on the other side of the table.

[00:06:08] Believe it or not, you know, it's possible to negotiate tough things with competitors or adversaries, if there's a willingness to understand what is making the other side tick. What they, you know, view as their must haves. And then trying to explore whether there's any way to get to common ground. 

[00:06:31] Matt Abrahams: It sounds like to me that in your approach to negotiation, it's first about clarity in your own position. A bit of empathy to understand other people's position. And I really like that idea of anchoring the bar high, and that buys you some room to actually move around. So those are some levers that you can pull to help move the negotiation. 

[00:06:49] Dr. Susan Rice: I love negotiation, it's so much fun. 

[00:06:50] Matt Abrahams: Tell me more about that. So in all the roles you had, do you find negotiation enjoyable?

[00:06:54] Dr. Susan Rice: I learned by in doing it that I really enjoyed it. What's fun about negotiating is that you're not ever sure where you're going to end up. It requires a whole range of skills from, you know, intellect to a little bit of, you know, canny, to all of the things I just described, you know, humor, charm. Find that as a direct person, being direct in negotiations actually works much better than being somebody who's perceived as slippery or elusive or untrustworthy. And then when you succeed, the product is, they're tangible and the gratification is significant, so I just find it fun. 

[00:07:33] Matt Abrahams: The reason I was curious is a lot of people I talk to don't like negotiating. They'd like to avoid it if they could. And it's interesting to hear that for you, it's something that's exciting because it gets to leverage some of the skills that you appreciate and have honed.

[00:07:46] Dr. Susan Rice: I like the outcomes of when you can get somewhere that's hard, 

[00:07:49] Matt Abrahams: Right.

[00:07:49] Dr. Susan Rice: That you didn't know that you could get to. And, you know, and what you come out with is tangible. It's not quite immediate gratification, but it's, you know, relatively quick, tangible gratification. 

[00:07:59] Matt Abrahams: Well, I appreciate that. And I think it might be motivational to many people for whom negotiation is hard or something they try to avoid.

[00:08:07] What advice can you give to people who find themselves in situations where they stand out as different from others in the groups that they work in? Be it because of their ideas, their gender, their race, cultural background, etcetera. You've worked with so many people who are different. What advice do you give to people in those situations?

[00:08:23] Dr. Susan Rice: I mean, this may sound simple and trite, but I think people do best when they are themselves and believe in themselves and are not trying to be something that they're not. Yeah, I've spent much of my career as one of the only, or one of the few black Americans in the room or a woman in the room, or. I could spend a lot of time being anxious about that and maybe, you know, trying to trim my sails or, you know, fit in or in some other way adapt myself to that environment.

[00:08:53] And I find one, that's not very genuine. But more importantly, it's not very comfortable. And I'm not bringing my best if I were to do that. And so my dad used to have a saying that I really have taken to heart and he was talking about his experience growing up in the segregated South and serving in the segregated Army Air Force during World War II. And then trying to break into the professional world as a PhD in economics in the 1950s when there were very few African Americans.

[00:09:25] And his whole career was one of sort of having to be the first or the second through any given door. And he had a saying, which was, if my being black is going to be a problem, it's going to be a problem for somebody else and not for me. Meaning that if somebody, you know, is trying to make him feel uncomfortable or inferior or in some other way unwelcome in a given setting.

[00:09:53] First of all, it's about understanding why that person is doing that. They're doing that because of their own insecurities in all likelihood, or their own need to make another person feel small. And you have an option of embracing their definition of you as your own. Or trying to resist that and building the muscles of mental self-esteem. And not letting other people define you for you.

[00:10:18] And that was something that, you know, my parents beat into my head and my heart. And I think it's helped me quite a bit as I've been in environments where I may not have, you know, been an obvious fit in the first instance. 

[00:10:33] Matt Abrahams: That notion of not letting other people define us I think is a very powerful notion for many people in many situations. I appreciate you sharing that. 

[00:10:41] Before we end, I'd like to ask you three questions. One I'm going to create just for you and the two others are similar that I ask people across all these interviews. Are you up for that? 

[00:10:50] Dr. Susan Rice: I will do my best. 

[00:10:51] Matt Abrahams: Excellent. I've heard you tell this story once live and once elsewhere, about some differences of opinion that exist in your own family. Would you share for our audience how your son, a Stanford student alum, had a different, perhaps political orientation, at least while here, versus yours? And how did you negotiate that? And how did you manage that? 

[00:11:10] Dr. Susan Rice: Well, my eldest child is my son, Jake, as we call him, but his given name is John. Um, has always been really interested in events around him in the world, and as he got older in politics and policy, growing up in Washington, DC, as he did with our family and where I grew up. And yet somehow along the way, somewhere in his early to mid-teens, having once upon a time campaigned with me in the snows of New Hampshire for Barack Obama. He evolved into a rather conservative political mind.

[00:11:47] And when he got here to Stanford, after a year or so, ended up as president of Stanford College Republicans. And stayed in that role through most of his time at Stanford. And he was not a shy and retiring version of the president of Stanford College Republicans. He was outspoken and unabashed and sought out debate and engagement with the Stanford College Democrats, with other people of different persuasions.

[00:12:14] He brought conservative speakers to campus, some of whom would not have been anything like my cup of tea. And that was challenging. Because I had, by that time, a certain image nationally and he had a very different one. And because of that there was, you know, some national attention or national news media, particularly on the Right, who thought this was, you know, quite delightful. 

[00:12:36] But we are very close. And I love both my children, you know, as deeply as it's possible to do so. But we just disagree on a lot of policy issues. Not all of them, but a lot. And we vote differently. But I'm proud of him because he has the courage of his convictions. And it takes guts, and I admire that. But nonetheless we continue to disagree strenuously on many things, and you know times it can get contentious. Now that he's grown up, out of the home, married, working, all that stuff, I don't get to see him that much. So I try really hard not to squander the time that we have arguing about politics. But, you know, it's a situation I think many people are familiar with. In our family, we try to prioritize the things that we share in our love over our political differences.

[00:13:27] Matt Abrahams: So, finding that common ground. I can't imagine where he gets his confidence and his strong. 

[00:13:32] Dr. Susan Rice: From his dad. 

[00:13:33] Matt Abrahams: I see that. It must be. It must be. I'll be very curious to get your answer to question number two. Who is a communicator that you admire and why? 

[00:13:42] Dr. Susan Rice: Well, I'm going to give two probably predictable answers, but they're honest answers.

[00:13:46] Matt Abrahams: Sure. 

[00:13:46] Dr. Susan Rice: Obviously, really admire President Obama as a communicator. He has an extraordinary ability to be relatable and clear. And passionate and funny and emotive and all of these things in different ways at different times. And, you know, as a writer himself, he spends time on his spoken words. And I think is really reflected in how he comes across. So he's top of the list. 

[00:14:15] Another is a friend and multiple time former colleague of mine who I admire enormously for her communication skills, Jen Psaki. Who was, most people know as President Biden's first White House spokesperson. And now, you know, she's an anchor on MSNBC. But the reason I admire her is, you know, I don't think I've ever seen a spokesperson with such, you know, clear, direct, plain English way of communicating. But also she parried the press so expertly with humor and forcefulness when needed, but grace. And it, I'm just, watching her dance at that podium was just brilliant and fun. 

[00:14:59] Matt Abrahams: I hear in both of those responses a respect for people who take the art of communication very seriously and work on their abilities. 

[00:15:08] My final question for you, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

[00:15:16] Dr. Susan Rice: I think being able to be clear, not convoluted, not overly flowery, just clear and direct and on point is certainly one. Being concise when that's appropriate. And, you know, none of us are perfect at that, but I think that's helpful. 

[00:15:34] And then structuring, having a structured message so that you've given some thought to what it is you're trying to say and the key points you're trying to get across, not meandering, not veering, not getting off track. And I think if you have a structure to your thinking and to your message, if you can deliver it without a lot of diversionary flourish. And just be mindful of who it is you're talking to. Your way of communicating in one venue might differ from that in another. But I think that the key ingredients are usually constants.

[00:16:08] Matt Abrahams: The notion of clarity, concision, structure, and knowing your audience. So well summarized the advice that we have heard across many episodes. 

[00:16:17] Thank you very much for this opportunity to chat your candor, your directness, and your role modeling the specific behaviors that you preach and live your life by were really, really powerful. I appreciate your time and for your insight. 

[00:16:31] Dr. Susan Rice: Thank you, Matt. It's been fun. 

[00:16:33] Matt Abrahams: Thank you. 

[00:16:35] Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about effective leadership, listen to episode 35 with Jeff Immelt. 

[00:16:46] This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.