159. Earn Your Audience: You Can’t Lead If No One’s Listening

[00:00:00] Matt Abrahams: In a world where things are changing all the time, conflict can rise at any minute and attention is at a premium. Training and developing strong leaders is critical. 

[00:00:13] Today I'm excited to speak with John Hennessy and Tina Seelig. John has been on Stanford faculty since 1977 and served as the university president for sixteen years. He also serves as chairman for Alphabet and is the co founder and director of the Knight-Hennessy Scholars. Tina is the executive director of Knight-Hennessy Scholars and director emeritus of the Stanford Technology Ventures Program. She also teaches courses at the Hasso Plattner Institute of Design, known as the Stanford d.school.

[00:00:46] Some of you might remember Tina's excellent episode on creativity. It was episode 111. John and Tina recently launched their own podcast called Leading Matters, and I encourage everybody to put it in their playlist. 

[00:01:00] John, welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart. And Tina, thanks for coming back. 

[00:01:04] John Hennessy: Thank you, Matt. We're delighted to be here. 

[00:01:06] Tina Seelig: Yeah, it's a pleasure. 

[00:01:07] Matt Abrahams: Excellent. John, let's start with you. At its core, Knight-Hennessy Scholars is a leadership development program. Can you share a little bit about the program and why you chose to dedicate your time to equipping future leaders? 

[00:01:20] John Hennessy: We decided that there was really a leadership void occurring, and that was a driving motivation to do this. And I've been a lifelong educator. I've been in the university now, Stanford for forty plus years. So I thought, why aren't we as educational institutions doing a better job of preparing people for this? And then we began to think about how do we teach leadership? What are the experiential learning opportunities that exist? And the focus has been on experiential learning, because I think that's the way you actually begin to teach leadership. 

[00:01:55] Matt Abrahams: Great. So it's all rooted in a need and then the actual experience of learning. 

[00:01:58] Tina, I've had the pleasure of being a faculty fellow for Knight-Hennessy and have seen the amazing tools and experiences you give to the scholars there. The program is centered around a robust leadership model. Can you briefly walk us through that model? 

[00:02:11] Tina Seelig: This model actually grew out of my reading John's book, Leading Matters. And I read it a couple of times and I kept pulling up all of these concepts that were very evident in the book. And decided to distill it down into a leadership framework that we could use to inform our teaching.

[00:02:28] And it has three parts. It's got traits, it has behaviors, and it has goals. So the traits are things that you think and feel, you know, who you are in the world, independent of what you're doing. It's like being visionary and curious and open minded and empathetic and courageous and trustworthy, things like that. 

[00:02:47] Then there are a set of six behaviors. This is being inspiring, and collaborative, and action oriented, and decisive, and analytical. And these are things you do and say, and these are things that we actually teach in our programming. 

[00:03:00] And then there are three goals. These are the goals that we hope our scholars come out with. That is a perspective, a multinational and multicultural perspective, a commitment to the greater good, and a commitment to creating meaningful results. 

[00:03:13] Matt Abrahams: I love that it's nested. Its traits, behaviors, and goals. Uh, John, anything you would add to the model? 

[00:03:18] John Hennessy: What's really been helpful about Tina's development of the model is she gave us a framework to think about specific things. So we think about storytelling, for example, or we think about building empathy skills, or we think about cross cultural dialogue within the scholar community. 

[00:03:34] Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I can totally see how it would ground you and it gives you a way to focus and almost gives you a rubric of the different ideas that you want to cover. And I know you guys offer lots of different opportunities for people to explore their own traits and then to learn and develop those behaviors. 

[00:03:47] John, you touched on empathy and I'd like to come back to that. Empathy and humility play a very important role in your leadership model and I know they're important to you. Can you help us understand why empathy and humility are so critical to leadership? And how could our listeners begin to hone and develop their own empathy and humility in what they do? 

[00:04:06] John Hennessy: You know, it's interesting, the humility, because people sometimes say, well, I know these leaders that are not very humble and look how successful they are. And we could obviously name a few. But I've observed that those are the people that don't fit the normal model and they are successful, sometimes not as long as they think they might be successful. But for me, humility was really about a studied sense of humility. It's about being open to new ideas. It's about not setting the aura that you're the smartest person in the room and you don't need anybody's help.

[00:04:38] Because of course, any leader leading a complex institution needs the help of everybody in the institution. Everybody in the community can contribute things and getting that tone right, so that people feel open, both to challenge you, and to bring in new ideas into the mix, I think is really critical. I found during my time as president, empathy became an important characteristic to listen to what people's needs were, how you could respond to it, and what you could do as the leader to really be empathetic with people. 

[00:05:13] One of the hardest things to do in leadership is to take people through a difficult decision. Where there are some parts of the community, at least will experience a negative outcome. How do you do that? Well, you have to be empathetic and as humane as possible and say, this is critical. We have to do this very tough thing. But I really am sympathetic with the people who are going to feel pain because of this. 

[00:05:37] And doing that, what I discovered during my time, particularly as president, was if I could do that well, I wouldn't build my enemies list as quickly as if I messed up. And to some extent, in any leadership position, you're limited by how many enemies you make in a given organization. As that list gets too long, your ability to continue to lead the organization just falls off quickly. 

[00:06:00] Matt Abrahams: Right. So being humble, being empathetic, I know curiosity is an important part of what you all do. I think those elements go together. 

[00:06:07] Tina, John mentioned storytelling. You are an expert storyteller and you're also an expert at teaching storytelling. Can you talk us through the role that storytelling plays in your leadership model? And just in general, your thoughts on what makes for good storytelling? 

[00:06:21] Tina Seelig: Absolutely. Storytelling is actually the first thing that got infused into the leadership program at Knight-Hennessy. Even before I got there, John had identified that this was something that was critical. And we have two fabulous people who teach our storytelling program. I know, you know, Dan Klein and Lisa Rowland. They're fabulous. And the idea is that no matter how compelling your invention, your idea, the thing you want to do in the world, if you can't communicate it in a really effective way, nobody's going to listen.

[00:06:49] And so our storytelling program is required for all of the first year scholars. During the first quarter, Dan and Lisa teach them all these storytelling tools and skills and they get to practice them. In fact, that's another way they get to know each other is they're practicing it by telling stories from their own life.

[00:07:04] And then during winter and spring, each scholar has the stage for five minutes to tell a story. They get feedback on their storytelling and their communication skills. And then we as a group sit down and talk about the concepts that were communicated during the stories. 

[00:07:22] Matt Abrahams: I love that you equip the participants with storytelling skills and opportunities to practice. What do you find is the most challenging storytelling skill that the scholars struggle with? Because a lot of people understand the value of storytelling, but they can struggle to do it. 

[00:07:37] Tina Seelig: I think people often want to tell a story in a very linear fashion, starting at the beginning, then the middle, then the end. But often it makes sense to start in the middle, drop you down in the middle of a situation, or even start at the end, show you what's happened, and then bring you along, take you back to the beginning. So there's some interesting ways to think about not telling a story in a very traditional linear fashion, but to use some other techniques to really hook the audience.

[00:08:03] John Hennessy: And learning to jump in. That's the other thing. It's very easy when you start doing this. I'm going to tell you a story about XYZ. No, no, no. Jump in and start telling me about XYZ. 

[00:08:13] Matt Abrahams: I really like this idea of teaching storytelling and practicing storytelling aligned with some greater purpose. In your case, the leadership model, I'm thinking about some of our listeners and their organizations. They could do something similar and aligned to the mission, vision, or values of the organization. So people aren't just telling stories. They're telling stories with the purpose of connecting to something that people share. And I think that's a useful skill. 

[00:08:36] Tina Seelig: And it works out really well, Matt, because what happens is, let's say we pick resilience. You'll get three different stories about resilience in really different environments, different contexts, very different parts of someone's life. And then we then get to unpack it as a group and everyone who's sitting around the table can then share their stories in a more intimate setting. 

[00:08:56] Matt Abrahams: As somebody who teaches communication and storytelling, as I know you do, Tina, it's really important to do that debrief, that discussion, because that's where we can really learn and reflect on what we've done.

[00:09:07] You know, in both of your answers, you've talked a little bit about the power of diversity. Diversity of the community, diversity of the stories. John, can you share a little bit about your thoughts on the importance of diversity and community and diversity of ideas in leadership? And how it can help us be better at what we do?

[00:09:27] John Hennessy: It's a good question, Matt. I think, you know, I'd start with the observation that most people in leadership positions lead a highly diverse team. They lead teams with different expertise, trying to work together to solve a problem. So in some sense, we're trying to model that. Perhaps one of the ways they model it is in the KHeystone Projects. So the KHeystone Projects bring scholars together. This was Tina's idea, she had this great idea. They come together, there's a pitch night. They all give a short pitch and then the scholars go and sit down at tables and teams assemble. 

[00:09:59] And so you'll get a team that's working on a problem and there'll be somebody from the law school, somebody from engineering, somebody from medicine, somebody from the business school, collaborating together to solve it. Which we think models what happens in the real world, how people solve problems.

[00:10:16] So it's a great way to take advantage of the intellectual and disciplinary diversity that exists in our community. Of course, we also have this multicultural aspect happens in so many different instances. 

[00:10:27] Matt Abrahams: I love the diversity of both experience and background, but also of culture and how that comes together. And I agree that leaders today are leading very diverse groups of people with experience, places of origin, age, etcetera. But often leadership teams tend to be less diverse than the people they're leading because it can be uncomfortable to bring somebody who has an expertise you don't have. That goes back to humility.

[00:10:48] Do you have your own ideas and anything you do with the scholars to bring about a comfort with inviting in that diversity? 

[00:10:54] John Hennessy: Well, we try to keep them open minded, intellectually curious. So that they want the participation of others in that, and I think that's a very valuable way to do it. But also this notion that you're open minded, you're open to different ideas, you can encounter things that diverge from your experience, your knowledge, even your views on things, and be able to have a civil, engaged dialogue about those things. 

[00:11:20] Matt Abrahams: Tina, I'm going to ask you a question related to this. It seems like a lot of what underlies the work you do is feedback, people being open to feedback and focusing on feedback.

[00:11:28] You have lots of opportunities for that. What is your perception of effective feedback? How does work, when, and how, and why? Because I've seen the feedback sessions and I've seen how people benefit. I'm just curious to get an insight in that. 

[00:11:39] Tina Seelig: Yeah, it's really interesting to think about how do you do this in this very diverse community. Where people have very different styles and very different backgrounds and very different cultures. Feedback happens organically. I mean, the students are getting very formal feedback in the storytelling. But through the rest of our programming, they're asking questions, they're learning about the responses. We really try to hone their skills at open mindedness and curiosity and to ask them to ask for feedback when they need it.

[00:12:10] And in fact, I'm really excited because we're going to be bringing you in next quarter to teach a session on giving and getting feedback as part of our brand new leadership program that is going to be required for the second year students. Because, as you know, more than anyone else, being able to hear effective feedback and to incorporate it is an incredibly powerful tool.

[00:12:30] Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I think underlying a lot of what you do, feedback is really important. Tina, when you were last here on Think Fast, Talk Smart, we talked a lot about creativity. Part of your approach to leadership in the program is to inspire the scholars to think big and tackle big problems. Why in particular do you focus on this aspirational approach to leadership?

[00:12:50] Tina Seelig: Well, Matt, you know what, it takes just as much time to do something little as to do something big, right? We all have the same twenty-four hours in the day. And are you going to focus on something incremental or something that's going to have a really big impact? So we encourage the students, in fact, we kind of give them permission to think big. And to give them opportunities to hear from people around the world who come in to speak with our students. And of course, faculty from around the university talking about the big ideas that they've tackled. 

[00:13:16] Matt Abrahams: So it's the pooling together of the diversity we've talked about, but also the permission to do so. So this question is for both of you, John, why don't you start? What are you hoping to accomplish with your new inspirational and educational podcast, Leading Matters?

[00:13:30] John Hennessy: We want to really reach the point where people understand leadership is a set of skills that can be taught. People will often say, can you teach leadership? You're either born with it or you're not. Well, remember that when you were born, you couldn't speak and language is a incredibly complex, difficult tool to master. So you obviously learn that skill. You can learn leadership skills in the same way. And we try to illustrate techniques for doing that. What the foundational principles are. And that I think hopefully people will understand how to do that and how to think about it appropriately. 

[00:14:04] Matt Abrahams: Great. I think it provides a nice grounding so people can learn. Tina, you've hosted a podcast before. I'm curious, what are your goals for Leading Matters? 

[00:14:12] Tina Seelig: We want to share with people what we're doing. Not only so they can understand it, but those people who might be interested would think about applying. And this is also a great way for us to capture all of John's incredible knowledge and wisdom and experiences. Because in the six podcasts, there are so many stories that get told about how these concepts were applied in very interesting and complex settings.

[00:14:35] Matt Abrahams: So it serves not just as an educational vehicle, but it also is a way of letting people know what's going on here and to get some insight. 

[00:14:42] John Hennessy: And one of the things we discovered, Matt, is while there are certain parts of our higher education system that teach leadership, the military academies, business schools. But in lots of other parts of the university, it's not taught. And yet we need people who are leaders who come from medical careers, who come from engineering, who come from these other aspects. So thinking about how we bring these together and really try to inspire hopefully other institutions to begin helping prepare the next generation. 

[00:15:10] Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. And some of the things that the scholars do is amazing. Not just while they're in the program, but beyond. 

[00:15:16] Before we end, I'd like to ask three questions. The first question I make up and the other two are similar. So Tina, since you've been here before and answered these, I'm going to start with you and I'm going to make up a question for you. And then John, if you're so willing, I'm just going to ask the last two questions.

[00:15:27] So Tina, you have written a book that I really enjoy. It's about, you know, What I Wish I Knew When. And so when it comes to leadership, is there something in particular, now that you're fully immersed in it and helping people, is there a leadership skill or idea you wish you would have known way back when?

[00:15:43] Tina Seelig: The thing that comes to mind is that leadership is not about you. It's about other people and it's about making them successful. You walk into a room, you have to think, what do I want them to feel? What do I want them to think? What do I want them to do? It's not about you. It's not about your success. Your success comes through the hands of other people. And that's your job as a leader is to think, how do you empower others? 

[00:16:08] Matt Abrahams: I think it goes back to that notion of empathy and being able to be in service of others. So John, I'll ask you the second question that I ask everybody and I'll be very curious because you know a lot of people. Who is a communicator that you admire and why? 

[00:16:21] John Hennessy: You know, so the person I really admire, communication in the written word, at least, is Abraham Lincoln. I mean, the precision, the language, right, government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. I mean, it's such a great line. It's possibly the greatest concluding line of any speech ever. 

[00:16:40] Other, I think, more recent leaders, Kennedy's announcement of what became the Apollo program, when he was at the Rice graduation. It's simply just stunning, elegant, bold, adventurous. I think there's, there are people throughout history that have done that FDR's fireside chats. I mean, really marvelous sculpted things. 

[00:17:01] Matt Abrahams: Beyond all of those people being, you know, very famous leaders, especially here in the United States, they all took great care with their words. And part, I think, of course, given my perspective and what I do. Language matters and in leadership, picking the right words and taking the time to strategically think about it, make a lot of sense. I think there are a lot of leaders who don't spend enough time focusing on their communication. 

[00:17:24] Final question, John, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 

[00:17:31] John Hennessy: Well, I think we already touched on the first. Precision in the choice of words. Conciseness. The story of Lincoln giving the speech after Everett, who was considered the great orator at the time, talks for two plus hours. Lincoln talks for less than two minutes and what do people remember? Those two minutes. That's what they remember. So I think conciseness is critical. 

[00:17:52] And I think clarity. Sometimes people, they either focus too much on the trees or they focus on just the big picture. And there's a combination that really brings people along, that helps them see what you're talking about, why it might happen, and of course, to be inspired because so many orations are about inspiring people to do something that's challenging. 

[00:18:16] Matt Abrahams: So precision, concision, and clarity. And for those in our audience who aren't familiar with the Gettysburg Address or Addresses that happened on that battleground, check them out because John's point of comparing those given on that day is an education in and of itself on oratory and communication.

[00:18:31] John and Tina, thank you for your time. The work you do at Knight-Hennessy Scholars is truly remarkable. The scholars benefit by developing themselves personally and their leadership skills. And thank you for giving us a little bit of insight into what it is they learn and why it's so important. Thank you.

[00:18:48] John Hennessy: Thank you, Matt. 

[00:18:49] Tina Seelig: It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. 

[00:18:54] Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about leadership and the qualities of a strong leader, please listen to episode 154 with Susan Rice and episode 35 with Jeff Immelt. 

[00:19:08] This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. With thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.