178. Navigating Chaos and Uncertainty: The Power of Transparency and Empathy

[00:00:00] Matt Abrahams: The best way to navigate the most challenging communication situations we face is to be crisp, concise and clear on the needs of our audience. My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

[00:00:21] Today, I'm excited to speak with and learn from Dr. Anthony Fauci, one of the world's leading experts in infectious diseases and public health. Many of us became aware of Dr. Fauci's expertise and experience through his active role managing the response to the COVID pandemic. He recently released the book, Expect the Unexpected: Ten Lessons on Truth, Service, and the Way Forward, which shares insights on effective communication and leadership during crises. 

[00:00:52] Dr Fauci. Thank you so much for being here. I'm very excited for our conversation. 

[00:00:56] Dr. Anthony Fauci: My pleasure. Good to be with you. Thank you for inviting me. 

[00:00:59] Matt Abrahams: Great. Shall we get started? 

[00:01:00] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Sure, let's get started.

[00:01:02] Matt Abrahams: In your role, you have often had to communicate in uncertain and involving situations. How do you approach communicating confidently when the facts are still uncertain?

[00:01:13] Dr. Anthony Fauci: What I try to do, hopefully most of the time successfully, is to let the audience know my recommendations or my guidelines that we're referring to are based on the information that we know at the time. But you must emphasize as firmly as you give the data, that this could change, and science is a self correcting process. You've got to let the audience know that. That the information you have today will inform a recommendation of today. But we must make sure we understand that as information changes, the self correcting nature of science would require that you change your recommendation. 

[00:02:00] Matt Abrahams: Right. So give a caveat up front that what you're saying is based on the best knowledge of the moment, but things will change. 

[00:02:07] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Exactly.

[00:02:08] Matt Abrahams: Trust is so critical in high stakes communication like you have done for so many years. What strategies have you used to build and maintain trust with the audiences you speak to, especially when conveying difficult or unpopular information? 

[00:02:24] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Yeah, well, one is to be totally transparent into what you know and what you don't know. What the difference of a statement based on data, evidence, information that is documented versus a statement that you have to make that is really based on a conjecture. And say, you know, we think it is this way, but we don't know for sure.

[00:02:52] You cannot act confident in something that is in fact not based on solid data. Whereas when the data is solid, you can say with a good deal of confidence that this is what the evidence shows, and this is what our recommendation or our guideline is. It's just transparency, honesty, and a little bit of humility to let the audience know that you don't know everything. And there are a lot of things that are revolving before you, and you'll just give the information as it becomes available to you. 

[00:03:28] Matt Abrahams: There's a certain amount of vulnerability that comes with that, putting yourself out there and saying, hey, this is what I know, I'm working on the best information I have. But that transparency can breed that trust as you've talked about.

[00:03:40] Your audiences have ranged from scientists to policymakers, to the general public. How do you think about making your messages accessible to everyone at all the different levels of expertise in detail that they need to do their jobs well? 

[00:03:58] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Well, it's a balance. So if you know what your audience is, I mean, there are two issues that are, I think, baked into your question. There is an audience that is somewhat of a homogeneous audience. So my first rule is whenever you're getting up in front of an audience in which it isn't a mixed audience, make sure you know who your audience is. If you're talking to a group of scientists, that's different than talking to a group of lay people who really don't have much experience in science.

[00:04:33] If you're talking to a group of high school students it's different than talking to a group of people in a elderly nursing home. There really is a big difference there. However, when you're talking to a group that's mixed, where you have people of various levels of understanding, experience, and interest, that's where you gotta walk a bit of a tightrope. And not to simplify too much, nor make it too detailed, that you lose the simplicity and the clarity of what you're trying to say. So whenever I get to the point of getting ready to address an audience, I try to figure out what kind of an audience is and directe it to that audience. And if it's a mixed audience, always try to get a delicate balance of getting to as many people in the audience as you possibly can. 

[00:05:33] Matt Abrahams: So taking time to reflect on who the audience is, and then thinking about how to adjust and adapt your material to make it accessible to them. Can, I'd like to push just a little bit to know if there's specific techniques you found very helpful.

[00:05:46] So for example, I like to use analogies, comparisons between things that people know, and maybe use that as a bridge to help them understand the things I'm trying to get them to know. Are there specific tools you've found helpful in explaining some of the complex ideas you have to get across? 

[00:06:03] Dr. Anthony Fauci: One of them is to give a concrete example that anyone can understand. That really simplifies the message that you're trying to get. The other is, don't get too many messages gobbled up at the same time. I know when you're in front of an audience, you'd like to make five separate points. My rule is, besides first knowing your audience, the second rule very close to that, is decide what your message is and make it a crisp clear message. Often scientists fall into the problem of trying to get too many points across in too detailed a way. Make it as simple and crisp as possible. You don't have to get twenty points across in a discussion, settle for one or two. 

[00:07:00] Matt Abrahams: Right. So it's about prioritization and being very concrete and specific and that can help. You know, many of us get nervous in high stakes situations. I can imagine no higher stakes situations than some you've been in. What techniques do you use to remain calm, composed and clear headed when delivering these really critical messages? 

[00:07:24] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Well, you have to train yourself for that, it's the same thing, I mean, I remember the first time I addressed an audience of multiple thousands of people, I just told myself, you've really got to talk yourself into not getting intimidated by the setting of the environment that you're in. And the more you do that, the easier it is. You know, when I was in front of a television camera, you shouldn't be saying, oh my god, there's millions of people watching.

[00:07:55] You're saying, I'm talking to an interviewer, and he or she is the only one that is listening to me. If you start getting intimidated by the potential size or importance of your audience, you might wind up concentrating too much on that and forgetting what your real message that you're trying to deliver is.

[00:08:17] Matt Abrahams: There are two techniques there that I think are really important. One is to focus on the message and value you're bringing, because that's what's the most important, and then second, see these circumstances as conversations rather than broadcasts to hundreds or thousands of people. It's really a conversation with the interviewer, as you said, or the ten people I know in the room of a thousand.

[00:08:43] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Right. 

[00:08:43] Matt Abrahams: And that approach can really help it be more comfortable for you. 

[00:08:47] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Indeed. 

[00:08:48] Matt Abrahams: You know, you've dealt with a significant amount of misinformation throughout your career. How do you effectively address misinformation without amplifying it or alienating those who espouse it? 

[00:08:59] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Yeah, I have a simple rule to that. The best way to counter misinformation and disinformation is not trying to confront it as misinformation and disinformation. But as I say, to flood the system with correct information, and I think that's one of the problems in today's world of social media, the people who are spreading misinformation and disinformation tend to be very energetic about it. In fact, even more energetic than the people who are just essentially giving good sound evidence based information. So don't try to correct all the misinformation. Just be very positive about correct information. 

[00:09:50] Matt Abrahams: So lean into what's correct and not worry about combating all of the misinformation 

[00:09:55] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Yeah, because you can get into a rabbit hole 

[00:09:57] Matt Abrahams: Right.

[00:09:58] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Every ten minutes when you do that.

[00:10:01] Matt Abrahams: For sure. I have been impressed as somebody who has watched you speak, as many of us have, uh, in different modalities on television, read your writings, etcetera. You do an amazing job of speaking impromptu, in the moment, when people ask you questions, the questions are well answered, when you're asked to share thoughts about something, you do it very well. How do you think about, I'm gonna ask you to get a little meta here. How do you think about that speaking in the moment? Are there things you do to help you respond well when put on the spot like that? 

[00:10:34] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Yeah, Matt, it again relates to some of the things we've already spoken about. And it really is an issue of simplicity. When someone asks you a question, go right to the core of what your message is going to be. Don't give a big introduction. As they often say in journalism, don't bury the message. 

[00:10:57] Matt Abrahams: Right.

[00:10:58] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Just make the message really, really clear. Don't give an introduction that's longer than what the actual message is. That's what I try to do. I try to answer people's question. I've believe been successful in that. When I hear people being interviewed or discussing with someone, when they get asked a question, somehow or other, they get distracted and don't answer the question. If someone asks you a question, answer the question, don't give a harangue about something else. Just answer the question. When you do that, it becomes very simple. 

[00:11:40] Matt Abrahams: It sounds like what you're doing first though, is you're listening intently to understand what's needed in that moment, what the real question is. And then you think to yourself, here's my answer. So it's really about bottom lining the question or the ask of you.

[00:11:53] Dr. Anthony Fauci: That's a very good point, Matt, because sometimes, in fact, maybe more often than not, people don't ask crisp questions. They meld in a comment with part of a question with the real question. So what you've got to learn to do is to dissect out what their real question is and answer it. Because often the questioner is pretty confused themselves in what the question is that they're asking you. And that could lead you into really a gobbled response. So what you want to do is make your decision of what exactly is the question that that person is asking me. 

[00:12:36] Matt Abrahams: Right. And so you help them focus, but you also help yourself focus. 

[00:12:39] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:12:41] Matt Abrahams: And that's really important. 

[00:12:41] Dr. Anthony Fauci: And you might even like to say before you start, instead of just jumping into the answer, saying, I'm assuming that you're, the core of your question is, and then make it very clear. So that when other people are listening, they can be guided into the fact that your answer is matched to the question that was asked.

[00:13:03] Matt Abrahams: Right. And so you're doing double service there. You're not only answering the question, you're serving up a good framing of the actual asking. 

[00:13:10] Dr. Anthony Fauci: You're clarifying their question for them. 

[00:13:13] Matt Abrahams: Some of your interactions have gotten contentious. What do you do and what do you recommend to manage conflict and dial down intense emotions?

[00:13:24] Dr. Anthony Fauci: I just think it's a general rule don't get taken up in the emotion of a discussion. You've got to be as cold as ice. I mean, you can be a little animated because it's an interesting discussion. Don't get angry, number one. Some people sometimes try to be comedic about it. Don't be joking about it. Be serious, but pleasant about it. And don't take the bait of someone that's trying to instigate a bit of an argument. It takes two to argue. So if you're not really wanting to argue, you're wanting to just get information across, don't take the bait of somebody that's trying to provoke you to get into an argument. 

[00:14:12] Matt Abrahams: So stay calm and stay focused and don't jump in to the conflict.

[00:14:18] Dr. Anthony Fauci: That's correct. 

[00:14:19] Matt Abrahams: So Dr. Fauci, before we end, I like to ask three questions of all my guests. One I make up just for you, and then the other two are consistent across all of the guests. Are you open to that? 

[00:14:30] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Sure. 

[00:14:31] Matt Abrahams: So in your latest book, you talk about Ten Lessons on Truth, Service, and the Way Forward. I'm curious if you could share one of those ten lessons that has surprised you in terms of how people have responded to it.

[00:14:46] Dr. Anthony Fauci: One of the lessons in my field that I think is always the number one lesson to be learned, including the challenges that we face with emerging and re emerging infections, which has been an area that I have been intensively involved in, is that is to expect the unexpected. Don't get surprised by something that would set you aback and shock you.

[00:15:16] Expect that when you're in a field like I am in, where you're talking about the emergence of infections, the emergence of potential pandemics. Always be on a tune where you're really expecting something that is very, very unusual. To me, that is one of the first rules that I say in my lessons that you're referring to.

[00:15:42] Matt Abrahams: Yeah, and I think that goes for people who aren't infectious disease experts. I think all of us in the work we do can be thinking about the fact that unexpected things will happen and not to be surprised by that and perhaps do some things to prepare for it in the future. Second question, who is a communicator that you admire and why?

[00:16:02] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Well, the communicator that I admired the most was a good friend of mine who actually passed away prematurely, Paul Farmer, who was a hero in public health. The way he could articulate the need for equal accessibility to health care of people who are less privileged, he was a master at making that point. And I've always tried to emulate him, in not only in his principles of parity and equity, but the way he communicated it to me was just highly effective. 

[00:16:38] Matt Abrahams: In terms of just it was clear and crisp. It was, um, easily repeatable and memorable. What were some of the elements that made it that way? 

[00:16:47] Dr. Anthony Fauci: Well, it was very sincere and you could tell it was coming from his heart as well as his head. And he was very firm and very, um, committed to that. And it became very clear that although he was a gentle man, and said it in a gentle way, he was very firm about it. And that, to me, was a very effective communication. 

[00:17:13] Matt Abrahams: So, somebody who had strong convictions was able to be compassionate, but also firm in the positioning.

[00:17:20] Final question, and I know we've talked about some of these already, but I'll let you revisit them. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 

[00:17:32] Dr. Anthony Fauci: The first ingredient, as I mentioned, is know your audience. 

[00:17:37] Matt Abrahams: Yep. 

[00:17:38] Dr. Anthony Fauci: The second ingredient is have a clear understanding of what your message is and you should have a very crisp ungarbled message. And three, don't try to say too many things at the same time. Stay simple and stay streamlined. 

[00:18:02] Matt Abrahams: You did an excellent job of repeating some of the themes that you brought up earlier. You did so in a very clear, simple, streamlined way. And I appreciate it. 

[00:18:10] Dr. Fauci, thank you for all that you have done for population of the US and the world. Thank you for your time today, sharing insights into communication. All of us can benefit by focusing on our audience, making sure we prioritize in a crisp way our messages, and really deliver these messages in a way that connect and resonate with those we're speaking to. Thank you for your time. 

[00:18:33] Dr. Anthony Fauci: My pleasure, man. Thank you. Good to be with you. 

[00:18:35] Matt Abrahams: Good to be with you. 

[00:18:39] Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Michael Reilly, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts, be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us at LinkedIn and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.