184. Fit or Quit? Find the Job That is Right For You—Catalyze Your Career

[00:00:00] Matt Abrahams: Career growth and fulfillment comes from work that is meaningful and aligned to who you are and where you want to go. I'm Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, The Podcast. This is the first of three Catalyze Your Career miniseries episodes that we've produced in collaboration with LinkedIn. Together, these three episodes will help you chart your career path and find your job match. This first episode is distilled down from a LinkedIn Live event we held. 

[00:00:37] Today I'm excited to speak with Catherine Fisher. Catherine is a seasoned career expert at LinkedIn, where she educates and inspires people on how to think about and grow their careers. She also serves as Vice President of Global Consumer Communications. You may have seen Catherine on television or read her Career Companion newsletter. Welcome Catherine. I look forward to our LinkedIn Live conversation about how we can all advance and accelerate our careers. 

[00:01:06] Catherine Fisher: Thanks so much for having me. It's one of my favorite conversations to have. 

[00:01:10] Matt Abrahams: Awesome. Thank you. And we look forward to taking questions from all of you who are joining us. Feel free to type questions in and we'll periodically pause to give you direct feedback and some advice. So Catherine, let's get started. What are some key indicators that suggest it might be time for a career pivot? How can individuals recognize these signals before they become significant issues? 

[00:01:34] Catherine Fisher: When you sit back and reflect and you realize, maybe I'm not as motivated as I used to be. I'm not interested in learning. Little things are annoying me more than they should be, is usually a time when you want to make some changes. And the good news is that work is changing so quickly. The workplace is very dynamic. You could probably do some little tweaks here and there to help change your work. I think what some people do is jump to the conclusion that they need to switch companies. And before you do that, you really need to sit back and reflect and figure out, is it the relationship with your manager? Is it that you're unmotivated because you're just bored? And so really trying to identify what that is before just jumping out of the frying pan to the fryer. 

[00:02:22] Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. You know, many of us are so busy with what we have to do at work and outside. It sounds like taking time to reflect on, how am I feeling, and what is causing some of these feelings can then help us. And I think that's really important for us to think about. Reflection is critical. You've mentioned that the best time to seek a job is before you actually need one. What are some proactive strategies we can implement to stay ahead in our careers and effectively prepare for new opportunities? 

[00:02:52] Catherine Fisher: Sometimes people when they're in their role, they feel like, I'm just going to stay here and it's going to be great for the rest of my career. And the reality is that you never know what opportunity is going to come your way. And there's several things that you can do to make sure that you're continuing to be prepared for those opportunities. The first is really tending to that network. We like to talk about how the network is almost like a garden. Like you're not going to go plant your garden and then walk away and just expect it to flourish and then give you ripe tomatoes. You actually have to go in there, you have to water it, you have to fertilize it, you have to tend to it. 

[00:03:29] And this is the same thing with your network. You want to make sure that you're really keeping that network strong. Other thing is you want to make sure that you're continuously learning. We see that the skills that are required to do the jobs today have changed dramatically. If you look on our jobs on the rise list, many of the jobs didn't even exist twenty years ago. And so what that tells you is that you want to always be prepared. It's being prepared, tending to your network. And the last thing is just really being adaptable, understanding that work is changing. 

[00:04:00] Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. Several people listening in might remember that I helped run learning and development for companies many years ago, and we were motivated by exactly what you said. Things are always changing, and we needed to provide our employees with those skills. So I invite everybody to tend to your skills, to tend to your network. And just like an athlete prepares for their sport, you need to prepare for your career. It's very easy to become passive in one's career. You've talked about actions we can take, but I'm curious about mindset as well. You advocate for a growth mindset in career development. How can we all develop this, especially when we feel stuck in traditional sort of job seeking ways? 

[00:04:41] Catherine Fisher: It's understanding that your career is not going to be linear, that you are going to have twists and turns and you're going to have to learn new things. And where people sometimes get overwhelmed is they feel like, oh my gosh, I have to learn all these new skills and I'm going to have to go back to school and I'm never going to have a life. And that's not the case. You could do bite sized learning. Just take ten minutes a day to take an online course, to learn something new, to practice something. So I talk a lot about how I first started getting comfortable with AI. And it was just really small things that I did. I incorporated it into my day to day life. And next thing I know, it's just become part of it. 

[00:05:26] Matt Abrahams: This notion of a growth mindset comes from Carol Dweck, who teaches at Stanford, where I teach, and it's really powerful in so many aspects of our lives. I really like how you're applying that idea to our careers. And having the ability to change and to grow, and not being stuck in who we are and how things are. And I like your idea of bite sized learning. There are LinkedIn courses. I've taught one. I participated in many and learned lots of great things. Taking a few moments to listen to Think Fast, Talk Smart, twenty minute episodes can help with communication. Lots of things that people can do. I'd love to invite those who are live with us to type in some questions. There's one that came in directly from LinkedIn that says, I love these strategies and these ideas and I plan to execute them every day, but sometimes I lose my motivation. Any thoughts on how we can keep the momentum going as we look to develop and catalyze our careers? 

[00:06:21] Catherine Fisher: Yeah, I think it's the same philosophy of doing it in bite sizes. And I wish that LinkedIn had been around when I graduated from college. Looking at profiles of people that you really admire and love their career and see what was their career progression. What did they study in school? What skills do they have? Where did they make changes in their career? It gives you that longer term goal. Sometimes I think that it's hard when you're feeling stuck, it's just really kind of mapping out what are the skills that you want to learn. I look at career as not being linear, but it's really a collection of skills. Maybe it's that you don't love the industry, but you can take your skills and really transfer them to a different industry. So really being mindful and thinking through what do you love to do? What do you want to learn to do and how are you going to do that? Even if it's just ten minutes a day, you will start feeling like you're making that progression.

[00:07:20] Matt Abrahams: I love that definition of a career of a collection of different skills and knowledge that you gained. We've done a couple episodes where we talk about this very issue around motivation and how to fit things in. Episodes with Katy Milkman and Szu-chi Huang really talk about things we can do to incent ourselves to move forward. In one of the classes I teach, our students actually go out and look at LinkedIn and find people who have careers and jobs that they're interested in, and actually look at how they got there. And the students come back with two major learnings. One, it's not a linear path, as you said. People do a lot of things to get to the jobs that they end up in, and two, that just by reaching out, people are so kind and willing to talk about what they've done and the informational interviews.

[00:08:07] I'd like to come back to some of the questions I have and then we'll take more questions that have come in. And thank you for those of you who've typed some questions in. What creative practices can individuals engage in to help them envision their potential future career paths? And how might these insights shape their current job search or professional development efforts? You've already touched on using LinkedIn as a tool to see how others got where they are, but I'm curious if you have other suggestions. 

[00:08:34] Catherine Fisher: So another thing you can do is look at the job descriptions that are of interest to you. And you can see if you're a job match or not. And then on LinkedIn, it'll show you what qualifications you have for it and what qualifications you don't. So looking for a job that, you know, may be way out of reach, go to the job description, see what the skills that they're listing, and then plot out a plan to acquire those skills, whether it's through online courses, through your job, other means of doing it. 

[00:09:06] And I think it's that planning and having that longer term goal. Now, I will be honest with you. I've never had the ten year career goal. I've not even had a five year career goal, but I knew in just intuitively what I enjoyed. And I would always ask to be given opportunities to learn. So just making that little plan for yourself. And I loved what you said about listening to podcasts. Like on my way into work, I was listening to a podcast. So learning those skills and just absorbing information doesn't mean that you're just in a classroom. It is through the content that you see, it's the, the podcast that you're listening to. It's like the surround sound of opportunities for you to learn. 

[00:09:50] Matt Abrahams: This notion that there are lots of ways that we can learn around us, observing others, going to meetups, talking to people, and just taking the time, and it becomes rewarding just the effort itself. This idea of thinking about the job description and using it as a tool for learning, that's a nugget of gold for me that I had never thought of. I'm going to certainly include that in some of the things I teach. I love this idea that the job description not only informs how you apply for the job, but it actually can inform how you develop some aspects of your career, what you learn. I know so many of my students and even friends who are intimidated by the job description. And I think flipping and saying, hey, this is a tool to help you grow your career, is wonderful.

[00:10:36] I'm going to read this question verbatim. It comes from Akshay and Akshay says, given how quickly the skills landscape is involving, how does one differentiate between learning those skills which one truly is interested in versus ones which are just current talk of the town? How do you differentiate and where do you place your bet in terms of learning? 

[00:10:59] Catherine Fisher: Great question. I think it comes down to what gives you energy and what zaps your energy. If you're learning a skill because you feel like you have to or you should, if it doesn't truly interest you, it's going to be hard. If there is something that is a barrier of entry in terms of getting a job, if you want to progress in this area, then you're just going to have to get these kind of basic skills. But some of what we find is actually those people skills, the human skills, those are highly in demand from hiring managers. So don't think that it's just hard skills that you have to learn. It could also be those more people skills, like communication and leadership. Think about your skill set as being well rounded. It's not just go learn AI. It is, learn how to lead a team as they're changing the way they do work as a result of AI. You want to look at it more holistically than just line by line of different skills. 

[00:11:57] Matt Abrahams: So many great points there. So one is we have to be realistic, right? Work is work. If we can be passionate about parts of it, I love my teaching. I love my podcasting. Grading, it's a valuable part of what I do, but I don't always love it. So really putting it into perspective, I think is important as well. And I really liked what you said about. It's not just the skills itself, but think about how those skills get deployed. So as you begin to think of your learning plans, AI is all the rage. People are learning about AI, learning about these LLMs. But also think about the, how do you deploy it? How do you actually work with a team that's now using it? And those skills are really valuable. 

[00:12:37] I want to take another question that came in and this one's from Bashir and it's really about our personal brand. And Bashir, know that coming up as part of this mini series on Catalyzing Your Career, we'll be talking to Dorie Clark who is an expert in personal brand and she'll be able to talk even more about this notion. But let me ask you, Catherine, how do we identify and leverage our unique strengths and talents to create a distinct personal brand as we go about pivoting or trying to advance our career? 

[00:13:07] Catherine Fisher: Another great question. What has worked for me is understanding how I want to be perceived, and sometimes that is based on experiences that I've had where it didn't feel good.

[00:13:21] You can't just say, I want to be known as a really empathetic leader and then just think that it's going to happen. It is that consistency over time. And really making sure that you're also not just getting stuck in what you thought would be your personal brand. Maybe it shifts. When I look at my career, I've been at LinkedIn for twelve years. I've had many different jobs, but there's always been that kind of core strength, which is communications. And then it splinters out in terms of how I deploy that. I think understanding what that kind of core is that you want to be and consistency over time, with some flexibility. 

[00:14:00] Matt Abrahams: It comes back to what you started with this notion of reflection. We have to reflect on what's important to us. How do we want to be known and then act in ways that are consistent. I would add one more element, and that is this notion of thinking about how we communicate that, not just through what we say, but what we do, where we go, where we don't go. It comes down to that reflection of, what are my strengths, what are the things that interest me, and then maybe think about what are the things that differentiate me from others, and what roles can I serve.

[00:14:31] I love this question coming from Shan because it uses this idea that I really like. And the question is, what's your advice on job crafting? How to do something more that you love? You're in a job. What can we do to actually craft it to be more what we'd like? Or perhaps as we look for jobs, craft those jobs to our liking.

[00:14:52] Catherine Fisher: You have to ask for what you want. That is a piece of advice I give all the time. Your manager is not there to manage your career. Your manager is there to manage the work that gets done. If you want to craft your career, you're going to have to, A, know what it is that you want to be asking for and being comfortable asking it, which I know can be hard. When you ask for it, you want to be able to say, I would like to take on this project. I'd like to take on this role. Here's why I think that this is important for the company and the job. And if you take one thing away from this, is to ask for what you want and also be prepared for someone to say no.

[00:15:36] When I look at the roles that I've had over the last twelve years, I would say, probably seventy percent of them was because I asked for it. And sometimes I asked and was told no. And then a couple of years later, I got what I had asked for. It's uncomfortable, but if you go in there knowing that fifty fifty that'll happen, at least then your manager will know also, hey, I remember you said you were interested in this and I couldn't make it happen last year, but now this opportunity has come up. So it won't be immediate gratification, but it's managing your career. 

[00:16:11] Matt Abrahams: Right. So crafting a career is first really reflecting and knowing what it is you're interested in, thinking about ways of positioning it, and then focusing on the communication and having that resilience and tenacity to come back if it's not granted or not exactly what you wanted. And sometimes it's not saying I want this, it's showing, hey, recently I was able to accomplish this and I think I can do even more moving forward. So how you ask can be really important as well. So before we end, I'm asking all of the guests for this Career Catalyst mini series, the same two questions. Are you up for that? 

[00:16:49] Catherine Fisher: Of course. 

[00:16:50] Matt Abrahams: Excellent. So question number one, what is the best career advice you ever received and why? 

[00:16:58] Catherine Fisher: I would say it was a long time ago and I, my kids were really young, and I was really struggling. My kids are eighteen months apart and I remember talking to a woman and she was kind of encouraging me to take on more and I was like, I can't take on any more. It's just too much. And her advice to me was that, as you get more senior, you can control your schedule and when you're available and when you're not. The reason why it was important is because how you're feeling today doesn't mean that it's the rest of your life, and it's not the rest of your career. And that your career is going to evolve and you can shape it in ways that will meet what you need. And at that moment in my life, what I needed was honestly just to, just to do my job and try to manage. But it just opened up that, I'm not in the same space in my life for the rest of my life. I hope that makes sense. 

[00:17:50] Matt Abrahams: I hear in that advice, this notion of agency and control, especially when we feel that we don't have that, and it can be really helpful to take a step back and say, no, I have a little more control here. I can make choices that do that. I think all of us, I certainly know there are times where I get overwhelmed, that that advice would help. All right. Final question. What is one thing you wish you would have done differently in the way you've managed your career? 

[00:18:16] Catherine Fisher: Oh, this is a good one. I had no plan at the beginning. I studied art history. I graduated from college and was like, I don't know what you do with an art history degree. I was a bank teller. I was all over the place. I got lots of good skills and skills are transferable. I wish I had just talked to people. I did not ask for one piece of advice and I wish I had. And I didn't understand the importance of the network and the importance of just asking those questions and seeing if they were me, what would they do? Yeah, I had a very windy career path. It took me a while to get to where I am. 

[00:18:55] Matt Abrahams: That notion of asking others and reaching out and building a network is so important. Catherine, thank you so much for your time today, for your advice and guidance. Super helpful. And really what I'm hearing is we have to reflect. We have to have a growth mindset towards our career, and we need to be very active with it. You need to keep nurturing and growing. It's not something that we just wait until something bad happens, and I appreciate that. I encourage everybody to check out Catherine's Career Companion newsletter on LinkedIn. Catherine, thank you so much, and thank you to all of you who joined, and especially those of you who asked questions. 

[00:19:31] Catherine Fisher: Thank you. 

[00:19:33] Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for this Catalyze Your Career miniseries episode, sponsored by LinkedIn. Be sure to tune in to the other two episodes in this miniseries. You can learn more about LinkedIn's Job Match feature at LinkedIn.com/jobs. This episode was produced by Ryan Campos, Shelby Merryweather, Aech Ashe, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. With special thanks to LinkedIn and Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn and check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, AMAs, Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.